Curse

Mineria · Nov 02, 2007, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I don't think that it has something to do with a generation issue when it is a discussion about the look of graphics.
Neither do I think that what is discussed here (L2 vs GW) shows that one has superior graphics over the other.
Both games got something to show of with, how you prefer it is more about personal taste.
But I would not find C64 games or Wolfenstein 3D as good today as I found it when they where released.
Simply because I know there is better.
Neither do I think that the younger generations, don't care about gameplay. Just look how many games that good extremely good graphics turn out to be a total flop, because the gameplay itself just doesn't rock.
Just take a look at something popular as Grand Theft Auto.
Graphics... they don't even get close to what other games offered at the same time. It was the gameplay that sold it.
I prefer to try demos or trials of games before I can decide if its worth my money, since I know that you can't always trust a magazine review.
A demo or trial shows what the game offers, except for how long time gameplay there is in it.
And most of us look for something new in games, so we get the "wow" effect from both graphics and gameplay.

Mineria · Nov 02, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

RedNova88

This is not a discussion about the difference in gameplay.
Even if both games got something to offer there as well.
I could start to take L2's game mechanics up, to explain a bit about the good sides to what you think is negative.
Plus a lot of stuff you didn't mention.
But I really can't be bothered at the moment.

RedNova88 · Nov 02, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

RedNova88

This is not a discussion about the difference in gameplay.
Even if both games got something to offer there as well.
I could start to take L2's game mechanics up, to explain a bit about the good sides to what you think is negative.
Plus a lot of stuff you didn't mention.
But I really can't be bothered at the moment.

My apologies then. I retract my comment, I suppose I didn't pay enough attention to what I was reading.

Government Flu · Nov 02, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Every game has a different design to it. If you're not impressed or particularly like the graphics in Guild Wars, there's always this to go to:

Blech!

Although yes, some people may say, "But wait, I love WoW's graphics, I think they're really charming!"

And so, we enter the crossroads of what people find to be good graphics or not. You know, graphics are only a small part of the game. What matters is how the mechanics work, how you can interact with objects within the game, and what you can do to pass the time, or what needs to be done to beat certain areas and missions...

Graphics are only the tip of the iceberg. Look at the whole game...then you'll have the right answer. Of course, that'll be an answer only for you, because everyone has their own opinion about everything.

Sleeper Service · Nov 02, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

I don't think that it has something to do with a generation issue when it is a discussion about the look of graphics.
Neither do I think that what is discussed here (L2 vs GW) shows that one has superior graphics over the other.
Both games got something to show of with, how you prefer it is more about personal taste.
But I would not find C64 games or Wolfenstein 3D as good today as I found it when they where released.
Simply because I know there is better.
Neither do I think that the younger generations, don't care about gameplay. Just look how many games that good extremely good graphics turn out to be a total flop, because the gameplay itself just doesn't rock.
Just take a look at something popular as Grand Theft Auto.
Graphics... they don't even get close to what other games offered at the same time. It was the gameplay that sold it(...)

This thread started off as a "look GW graphics suck compared to L2 (i hope GW2 graphics are like L2 undercurrent)."

I still find Wolf3d as good as it was at the time. but meh.

GTA sold on something other than graphics, gameplay was there sure...but nothing really revolutionary, it was concept that did it. Its a CULT game that and it goes way beyond graphics or gameplay, it reflected a certain view of the world that untill then had been taboo in mainstream videogames.

Smash TV had better gameplay than gta...ten years before.

Its not about games being a flop, its about media coverage, distribution and the way the industry pushes forward. What products recive backing and get sold to us a lot of the time rely on graphics because thats whats visible its what can be printed out on mags and pointed to saying "hey this game HAS to be good check out the 2731239trillion polygons and AA*63!"

Case in point L2. it LOOKS awesome. if you see it from screenshot.

N E D M · Nov 02, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

they get epic looking weapons like this

This is absurd - If weapons are this cartoonish and dumb in GW2 im skipping it!

Quote:

Again an awsome warrior, that shows really cruel, how childish versus that the warriors of GW are designed

Not to meantion the weapon design, that looks really epic and cool

Ummmm Guild Wars warriors are childish in design?
This warrior looks like it was designed by a seven year old.
I prefer a weapon that is capable of actually being lifted off the ground without a crane.

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I'd like to meet a seven year old who can design like that, frankly. I presume you yourself can do better then?

N E D M · Nov 02, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

"Design" and "render" are not the same

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I'm the last person you need to explain graphics to, trust me. That's also why I don't like pompous exaggerations

TheMosesPHD · Nov 02, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

The graphics really aren't as great as screenshots make them look. They never are. There are a few Lineage 2 private servers out there where you can try the game for free (though it's a crappy server so it's not worth it for more than a few weeks) and I actually have. The graphics are not up to standard with current games, and like someone said earlier the terrain graphics of GW blow Lineage2 terrain graphics out of the water.

And believe me, terrain graphics are a lot more important than just having cool looking char graphics. Think of how much space your character takes up on the screen when you're actually playing the game and not just staring at it. Not much right? The terrain in L2 is crappy and it really makes you want to quit playing pretty fast.

Let me put it this way, the L2 terrain graphics aren't any better than Silkroad terrain graphics. Yeah....that bad...

arcady · Nov 02, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Too high quality of graphics can kill a game.

Witness Neverwinter Nights 2 - such high demands that even high end systems at release time couldn't run it. You needed cards in the top 10 of what was out at the time, or you were asking for blue screen parties.

One of the great things about WoW - that has likely driven its popularity - is the very low system requirements of its cartoony graphics. GW likewise has low demands, though the style chosen is not cartoony. You commonly hear people note a lack of lag, and that is more due to low memory and graphics needs than instancing.

As for Lineage 2, does anyone in North America play that game? I've never even seen it for sale.

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Witness Neverwinter Nights 2 - such high demands that even high end systems at release time couldn't run it. You needed cards in the top 10 of what was out at the time, or you were asking for blue screen parties.

Not only that, but it doesn't even look that great. And it's highly unoptimized.

Kusandaa · Nov 02, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

As for Lineage 2, does anyone in North America play that game? I've never even seen it for sale.

My cousin's boyfriend plays LA2. She won't touch it, but her boyfriend could spend a lot of time on it. I think he slacked, but the last time I went there, he was a semi-hardcore player. *jealous of LA2's trading system*

Anyways, to give my 2 cents... Gameplay > Graphics. And by A LOT.

To this day, I prefer the old 8bit NES's Dragon Warrior I to Dragon Quest 8 released 2 years back. Give me good ol' Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal and Final Fantasy 2 over Ruby/Sapphire and FF10. I guess I'm old school when it comes to gaming, but graphics as always came in second to gameplay.

GW has both for me - a good gameplay, and good graphics. Can't complain on that on my part x].

arcady · Nov 02, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by N E D M

This is absurd - If weapons are this cartoonish and dumb in GW2 im skipping it!

Ummmm Guild Wars warriors are childish in design?
This warrior looks like it was designed by a seven year old.
I prefer a weapon that is capable of actually being lifted off the ground without a crane.

In the national war museum in Seoul Korea there is a sword that is 12 feet long. It was used in actual battle during one of the many invasions by Japan, though I don't recall which anymore, as its been 11 years since I visited the museum, and Japan has invaded Korea more times than any human could reasonably count.

Needless to say, one reason these Manwa swords might be so extreme is that the Northern Asians historically did have some extremely long by western standards weapons. Not as a norm, but it was not the only large weapon I saw there.

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

In the national war museum in Seoul Korea there is a sword that is 12 feet long. It was used in actual battle during one of the many invasions by Japan, though I don't recall which anymore, as its been 11 years since I visited the museum, and Japan has invaded Korea more times than any human could reasonably count.

Needless to say, one reason these Manwa swords might be so extreme is that the Northern Asians historically did have some extremely long by western standards weapons. Not as a norm, but there were many other large weapons as well.

I'm quoting this because this has been the most insightful and benefical post I've ever read on this forum.

arcady · Nov 02, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Not only that, but it doesn't even look that great. And it's highly unoptimized.

Yeah.

I was -not- commenting on the artistic quality...

Look around in NwN2 and you will notice they have some very intense graphical details, probably more than in any other game on the market - but they wasted them on a design team that understood technical detail but not artistic design.

They went all out on detail, to an extent that cost them much of their former user base, but they had no artistry behind it.

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Yeah.

I was -not- commenting on the artistic quality...

Look around in NwN2 and you will notice they have some very intense graphical details, probably more than in any other game on the market - but they wasted them on a design team that understood technical detail but not artistic design.

They went all out on detail, to an extent that cost them much of their former user base, but they had no artistry behind it.

Yeah, it's very sad, especially being a NWN fan myself.

But have you seen the church template?? It's damned ugly! More evil than good.

arcady · Nov 02, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

NwN2 was one of those games I waited for for ages, bought it, spent a ton upgrading my system so I could load it, loaded it, and then put it back in the shelf and figured... hey, at least now I can run GW with full anti-aliasing turned on and not have any lag.

Used to play GW at 1024x768, no anti-aliasing, and bad textures. Now I'm at 1280x960, full anti-aliasing, and top textures, and I have less lag than I used to... So I guess I got something out of NwN2 after all.

Only reason I'm at 'only' 1280 is that the monitor was the one thing I didn't upgrade... and that's the top it could handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Government Flu

there's always this to go to:

[WoW pic snipped]

Blech!

Although yes, some people may say, "But wait, I love WoW's graphics, I think they're really charming!"

WoW design is brilliant. Cartoonism increases 'identification' among viewers - as in, the more cartoony a representation of a human is, the more people can identify with that representation.

Read Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" for an in depth look at this.

That look is another major aspect of the game's popularity. Even if you don't like it, if you understand anything about visual psychology, you have to respect it. Whoever came up with that style has something really solid to put on their resume for years to come.

I actually think that in two very different ways, GW and WoW make very smart visual design choices compared to those of their competitors. For me its not so much about comparing which is better (visually speaking), but admiring the graphic design / concept art teams of both.

Sleeper Service · Nov 02, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

...
Read Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" for an in depth look at this.

That look is another major aspect of the game's popularity. Even if you don't like it, if you understand anything about visual psychology, you have to respect it. Whoever came up with that style has something really solid to put on their resume for years to come.

I actually think that in two very different ways, GW and WoW make very smart visual design choices compared to those of their competitors. For me its not so much about comparing which is better (visually speaking), but admiring the graphic design / concept art teams of both.

that book ranks in my top 10 with reinventing comics.

and yes the simpler the style the easier it is for a person to identify with it. Paradoxically the brain has to work harder to "see" the toon.

Amazing stuff.

Rathcail · Nov 02, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Green Aluminum

The graphics in the game are the best especially those night elves. If you had a good card the night elf's breast jiggle beats the Ele breast jiggle.

My gods, I have been playing the wrong game! L2, here I come!